Conversation i had today (sparked by a comment after playing planescape torment that a plane with only 2 dimensions would be interesting), thought it was worthy of posting here…

Mr_Trainspotting: So did you have fun thinking about 2 dimensional creatures?

InsaneLampshade: …well i think 2 dimensional things can exist, an AI that has an avatar which only exists on the computer screen.

To us viewing it there are 3 dimensions involved, the computer that it’s on etc. But it’s actual appearance is only 2 dimensional, hmm, it’s thought processing would be done by a 3 dimensional object though, but as far as it’s concerned there are only 2 dimensions, it would never know about the computer it’s on, it wouldn’t have the capability to know, all it would know is what currently exists around it. Fair enough, feed it enough information and it may get curious, it may have it’s suspicions… but it would never be able to prove that a 3rd dimension, that the computer exists, it can only ever exist in it’s 2 dimensional world.

Even if the AI got really intelligent, had access to a camera to the outside 3d world, it would still only receive the data from the camera in 2 dimensions, it could conduct experiments all it wants, have the most perfect theory that explains the existence of the 3rd dimension, but ultimately it will never be able to prove anything since all the results are transmitted into it’s 2 dimensional world.

The same could probably be applied to us, as far as we’re concerned we function in 3 dimensions, but what if like the 2 dimensional being we need a 4th dimension supporting us, one which we cannot see… one that as 3 dimensional creatures we have no chance of ever proving.

As for 2 dimensional beings projecting into a 3 dimensional world… yes i guess that is possible, the AI avatar on the computer screen couldn’t exist in the 3 dimensional world without modification (which it theoretically could grasp itself, would just need someone from our world to give it a body), but even though it can’t exist in our world on it’s own it certainly could do things that would affect our world, it possibly wouldn’t know exactly what it was doing or what effect it was having, but the 2 dimensional being would certainly be able to affect the 3 dimensional machine supporting it.

Same with us… if a 4th dimension does exist supporting us then we should start trying to affect that world until something from that dimension takes notice of us… gives us a 4 dimensional body…….. this is the future of evolution…

Mr_Trainspotting: An image on a screen is still 3 dimensional. Even photons have 3 dimensions.

Saying that an AI is merely 2 dimensional is no different to say that the human mind is two dimensional. An AI could visualise things in 3 dimensions just as easily as a human can.

By that reasoning a human being is a sub 3 dimensional entity occupying a 3 dimensional form.

InsaneLampshade: The screen is 3 dimensional, but as far as the AI is concerned it only knows of 2 dimensions… x,y coordinates in it’s world.

Yes… the AI could visualise things in 3 dimensions, but it couldn’t exist in 3 dimensions unless it had a body here… which it wouldn’t be able to create by itself.

And yes… we may well be sub 3 dimensional entity’s occupying a 3 dimensional form, we have the capability of understanding additional dimensions in theory, we just have no way of getting there (though we could probably go backwards… didn’t they hook a rat brain up to a computer at one point and it could move the mouse around on the screen).

Mr_Trainspotting: An intelligence is an intelligence.

An AI occupies 3 dimensional space in the exact same way as a human does.

InsaneLampshade: Yes, that is true i suppose. The AI example would be a 3 dimensional creature that’s been limited to only operating in 2 dimensions. The theory still holds though, even though it’s intelligence is present in the 3 dimensional world, as far as it’s concerned there are only 2 dimensions.

Therefore going back to earlier… we cannot possibly be sub 3 dimensional beings occupying a 3 dimensional form….. we can however be higher dimensional beings that have been limited to operating in a 3 dimensional world.

Then you get into all sorts of problems, as far as i’m concerned a 2 dimensional being cannot exist alone in a 2 dimensional world, it must have support from a 3rd dimension, it is not possible otherwise… the problem being that if that’s true then that means we can’t exist as we do without a 4th dimension, and so on… therefore there are infinite dimensions of existence.

Mr_Trainspotting: But a conscious entity doesn’t exist in the bounds of dimensional space, consciousness is separate from physical inference.

The physical body occupies space, the consciousness doesn’t.

Of course, a conscious mind is merely an interconnect of electrons (unless you believe in a spiritual solution), this is the same for both an AI and a Human or any animal.

Which means consciousness is defined by the physical 3 dimensional properties of an electron, its conductance and resistance.

InsaneLampshade: Indeed, therefore consciousness is either non-dimensional and thus can exist wherever it wants, or it is only in existence because of the physical 3 dimensional properties of the body.

If it can exist wherever it wants, then any number of other dimensional beings could exist just like us, and we could therefore transfer between dimensions fairly easily.

If consciousness is only in existence because of the 3 dimensional properties it has, then it must be unique to our world, other dimensional beings would be completly different from anything we could comprehend, their existence would therefore be hard to prove, we wouldn’t know what we were looking for, not to mention the trouble we’d have existing in another dimensional world.

I still don’t see how we could ever locate an other dimensional creature though, or how one of them would go about “projecting” themselves to us.

I can see it working if as i said the creature in question already had some presence in the other dimension it’s not operating in, but on further thought that seems not to be the case… our consciousness is clearly in our dimension, experimentation on brains provides obvious results that show they are what controls our bodies, the earlier AI example would not be able to do such experiments since it was being forced to operate in a lower dimension than it’s consciousness.

…i think i can see why the old woman refused to go through any doors or arches, i know i certainly wouldn’t like to end up in another dimensional plane.

Mr_Trainspotting: Just imagine the unfortunate problems of being a 3 dimensional object in 2 dimensional space.

Sounds like something that could happen in Cthulhu.

The primary question revolves around – is consciousness bound by electrical/chemical stimuli, or can it be separate to that.

Of course maybe consciousness is sub-dimensional already – I once had a theory about that…

Highly pretentious ramblings… anyone got anything they want to add?

After the complete shambles that was the BA/Finnair combo earlier in the year, it was decided that we would only ever fly direct flights again, and thus Virgin Atlantic flights have been booked.

I stand by my opinion that Virgin always have the best in-flight entertainment (and food), and i have to say their website supports my opinion…

http://www.virgin-atlantic.com/en/gb/whatsonboard/inflightentertainment/tv/vjapan.jsp

I wonder what they’ll be showing come November (i place £1 on Haruhi, though that being a more hopeful bet than anything, lol).

…the first time i went to Japan with virgin they were showing a subtitled (in English) version of the Ghost In The Shell 2 movie before it had even been announced for English license, lol.

All hail Richard Branson and his delicious food, hot cabin crew (unlike Finnair *cough*), superb in-flight entertainment, and generous frequent flyer program. ^_^

There is growth!

Hopefully one of many more Naga’s to come (note: it’s no-where near it’s full size yet, and it’s certainly no-where near being ripe).

The difference between the naga plant and the habanero one is quite striking (as in the naga bush towers over the little habanero one next to it), i’ll have to get a comparison shot sometime.

Now as for what i’m going to do with this chili who knows, lol, but we must find out whether the machine can stand up to a full naga.

(i tried to think of something exciting for the topic title but that was all i could come up with, lol)

Once again the postman has brought a large box of excitement…

Halko Momoi’s 2 recent concert DVD’s, haven’t had time to watch the sunday early morning one yet, but the cover song dvd was enjoyable as usual (though i must admit i was slightly disappointed that not all of her cover song tracks were on the dvd).

And as for the rest, well it’s all just preparation for November… short one week trip to Japan for some concerts. 1 Tanaka Reina t-shirt & wristband, 4 Reina photos, 1 Kusumi Koharu t-shirt & wristband, 6 Koharu photos, 2 Koharu pop stands (the Papancake one not pictured is currently decorating my desk at work), 1 Berryz Kobo t-shirt & wristband, 1 Sudo Maasa t-shirt & wristband, and 2 Maasa photos (note: the Reina stuff isn’t for me, lol).

I find it funny that everything seems to come with photo’s these days… t-shirts, cd’s, even the 2 Momoi dvd’s had a photo in each of them (sadly none of the signed ones though). Yahoo japan auctions and photo’s are a slippery slope though, so i shan’t be purchasing any on their own, lol.

Well, preparations are almost complete at least 10 concerts in November… Berryz, Morning Musume, Perfume (maybe Momoi will be doing one this time too). And off to Germany in a month to see Momoi again, looking forward to it!

Not going to Amecon this weekend because well quite frankly it was either Amecon or return to Connichi and Japan… the decision was easy, lol. My motto seems to be working well… no guests ever come here to the UK therefore i shall go to the guests (and have a damn sight more fun in the process).